Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 05:27:04 From: Space Digest maintainer Reply-To: Space-request@isu.isunet.edu Subject: Space Digest V15 #635 To: Space Digest Readers Precedence: bulk Space Digest Tue, 5 Jan 93 Volume 15 : Issue 635 Today's Topics: Astro/Space Frequently Seen Acronyms Orbital elements of junk in space wanted Soviet space disaster? Space List Flame Wars SSTO vs 2 stage Stupid Shut Cost arguements (was Re: Terminal Velocity Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Jan 93 06:02:17 GMT From: Mark Bradford Subject: Astro/Space Frequently Seen Acronyms Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space,sci.space.shuttle,news.answers Archive-name: space/acronyms Edition: 8 Acronym List for sci.astro, sci.space, and sci.space.shuttle: Edition 8, 1992 Dec 7 Last posted: 1992 Aug 27 This list is offered as a reference for translating commonly appearing acronyms in the space-related newsgroups. If I forgot or botched your favorite acronym, please let me know! Also, if there's an acronym *not* on this list that confuses you, drop me a line, and if I can figure it out, I'll add it to the list. Note that this is intended to be a reference for *frequently seen* acronyms, and is most emphatically *not* encyclopedic. If I incorporated every acronym I ever saw, I'd soon run out of disk space! :-) The list will be posted at regular intervals, every 30 days. All comments regarding it are welcome; I'm reachable as bradfrd2@ncar.ucar.edu. Note that this just tells what the acronyms stand for -- you're on your own for figuring out what they *mean*! Note also that the total number of acronyms in use far exceeds what I can list; special-purpose acronyms that are essentially always explained as they're introduced are omitted. Further, some acronyms stand for more than one thing; as of Edition 3 of the list, these acronyms appear on multiple lines, unless they're simply different ways of referring to the same thing. Thanks to everybody who's sent suggestions since the first version of the list, and especially to Garrett A. Wollman (wollman@griffin.uvm.edu), who is maintaining an independent list, somewhat more verbose in character than mine, and to Daniel Fischer (dfi@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de), who is maintaining a truly HUGE list (535 at last count) of acronyms and terms, mostly in German (which I read, fortunately). Special thanks this time to Ken Hollis at NASA, who sent me a copy of NASA Reference Publication 1059 Revised: _Space Transportation System and Associated Payloads: Glossary, Acronyms, and Abbreviations_, a truly mammoth tome -- almost 300 pages of TLAs. Special Bonus! At the end of this posting, you will find a perl program written by none other than Larry Wall, whose purpose is to scramble the acronym list in an entertaining fashion. Thanks, Larry! A&A: Astronomy and Astrophysics AAO: Anglo-Australian Observatory AAS: American Astronomical Society AAS: American Astronautical Society AAVSO: American Association of Variable Star Observers ACE: Advanced Composition Explorer ACRV: Assured Crew Return Vehicle (or) Astronaut Crew Rescue Vehicle ADFRF: Ames-Dryden Flight Research Facility (was DFRF) (NASA) AGN: Active Galactic Nucleus AGU: American Geophysical Union AIAA: American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics AIPS: Astronomical Image Processing System AJ: Astronomical Journal ALEXIS: Array of Low Energy X-ray Imaging Sensors ALPO: Association of Lunar and Planetary Observers ALS: Advanced Launch System ANSI: American National Standards Institute AOA: Abort Once Around (Shuttle abort plan) AOCS: Attitude and Orbit Control System Ap.J: Astrophysical Journal APM: Attached Pressurized Module (a.k.a. Columbus) APU: Auxiliary Power Unit ARC: Ames Research Center (NASA) ARTEMIS: Advanced Relay TEchnology MISsion ASA: Astronomical Society of the Atlantic ASI: Agenzia Spaziale Italiano ASRM: Advanced Solid Rocket Motor ATDRS: Advanced Tracking and Data Relay Satellite ATLAS: Atmospheric Laboratory for Applications and Science ATM: Amateur Telescope Maker ATO: Abort To Orbit (Shuttle abort plan) AU: Astronomical Unit AURA: Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy AW&ST: Aviation Week and Space Technology (a.k.a. AvLeak) AXAF: Advanced X-ray Astrophysics Facility BATSE: Burst And Transient Source Experiment (on CGRO) BBXRT: Broad-Band X-Ray Telescope (ASTRO package) BEM: Bug-Eyed Monster BH: Black Hole BIMA: Berkeley Illinois Maryland Array BNSC: British National Space Centre BTW: By The Way C&T: Communications & Tracking CCAFS: Cape Canaveral Air Force Station CCD: Charge-Coupled Device CCDS: Centers for the Commercial Development of Space CD-ROM: Compact Disk Read-Only Memory CFA: Center For Astrophysics CFC: ChloroFluoroCarbon CFF: Columbus Free Flyer CFHT: Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope CGRO: (Arthur Holley) Compton Gamma Ray Observatory (was GRO) CHARA: Center for High Angular Resolution Astronomy CIRRIS: Cryogenic InfraRed Radiance Instrument for Shuttle CIT: Circumstellar Imaging Telescope CM: Command Module (Apollo spacecraft) CMCC: Central Mission Control Centre (ESA) CNES: Centre National d'Etude Spatiales CNO: Carbon-Nitrogen-Oxygen CNSR: Comet Nucleus Sample Return COBE: COsmic Background Explorer COMPTEL: COMPton TELescope (on CGRO) COSTAR: Corrective Optics Space Telescope Axial Replacement CRAF: Comet Rendezvous / Asteroid Flyby CRRES: Combined Release / Radiation Effects Satellite CSM: Command and Service Module (Apollo spacecraft) CSTC: Consolidated Satellite Test Center (USAF) CTIO: Cerro Tololo Interamerican Observatory DCX: Delta Clipper eXperimental DDCU: DC-to-DC Converter Unit DFRF: Dryden Flight Research Facility (now ADFRF) DMSP: Defense Meteorological Satellite Program DOD: Department Of Defense (sometimes DoD) DOE: Department Of Energy DOT: Department Of Transportation DSCS: Defense Satellite Communications System DSN: Deep Space Network DSP: Defense Support Program (USAF/NRO) EAFB: Edwards Air Force Base ECS: Environmental Control System EDO: Extended Duration Orbiter EGRET: Energetic Gamma Ray Experiment Telescope (on CGRO) EJASA: Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic ELV: Expendable Launch Vehicle EMU: Extravehicular Mobility Unit EOS: Earth Observing System ERS: Earth Resources Satellite (as in ERS-1) ESA: European Space Agency ESO: European Southern Observatory ET: (Shuttle) External Tank ETLA: Extended Three Letter Acronym ETR: Eastern Test Range EUV: Extreme UltraViolet EUVE: Extreme UltraViolet Explorer EVA: ExtraVehicular Activity FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions FAST: Fast Auroral SnapshoT explorer FFT: Fast Fourier Transform FGS: Fine Guidance Sensors (on HST) FHST: Fixed Head Star Trackers (on HST) FIR: Far InfraRed FITS: Flexible Image Transport System FOC: Faint Object Camera (on HST) FOS: Faint Object Spectrograph (on HST) FRR: Flight-Readiness Review FTP: File Transfer Protocol FTS: Flight Telerobotic Servicer FUSE: Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic Explorer FWHM: Full Width at Half Maximum FYI: For Your Information GAS: Get-Away Special GBT: Green Bank Telescope GCVS: General Catalog of Variable Stars GEM: Giotto Extended Mission GEO: Geosynchronous Earth Orbit GDS: Great Dark Spot GHRS: Goddard High Resolution Spectrograph (on HST) GIF: Graphics Interchange Format GLOMR: Global Low-Orbiting Message Relay GMC: Giant Molecular Cloud GMRT: Giant Meter-wave Radio Telescope GMT: Greenwich Mean Time (also called UT) GOES: Geostationary Orbiting Environmental Satellite GOX: Gaseous OXygen GPC: General Purpose Computer GPS: Global Positioning System GRO: Gamma Ray Observatory (now CGRO) GRS: Gamma Ray Spectrometer (on Mars Observer) GRS: Great Red Spot GSC: Guide Star Catalog (for HST) GSFC: Goddard Space Flight Center (NASA) GTO: Geostationary Transfer Orbit HAO: High Altitude Observatory HD: Henry Draper catalog entry HEAO: High Energy Astronomical Observatory HeRA: Hermes Robotic Arm HF: High Frequency HGA: High Gain Antenna HLC: Heavy Lift Capability HLV: Heavy Lift Vehicle HMC: Halley Multicolor Camera (on Giotto) HR: Hertzsprung-Russell (diagram) HRI: High Resolution Imager (on ROSAT) HSP: High Speed Photometer (on HST) HST: Hubble Space Telescope HUT: Hopkins Ultraviolet Telescope (ASTRO package) HV: High Voltage IAPPP: International Amateur/Professional Photoelectric Photometry IAU: International Astronomical Union IAUC: IAU Circular ICE: International Cometary Explorer IDA: International Dark-sky Association IDL: Interactive Data Language IGM: InterGalactic Medium IGY: International Geophysical Year IMHO: In My Humble Opinion IOTA: Infrared-Optical Telescope Array IOTA: International Occultation Timing Association IPS: Inertial Pointing System IR: InfraRed IRAF: Image Reduction and Analysis Facility IRAS: InfraRed Astronomical Satellite ISAS: Institute of Space and Astronautical Science (Japan) ISM: InterStellar Medium ISO: Infrared Space Observatory ISO: International Standards Organization ISPM: International Solar Polar Mission (now Ulysses) ISY: International Space Year IUE: International Ultraviolet Explorer IUS: Inertial Upper Stage JEM: Japanese Experiment Module (for SSF) JGR: Journal of Geophysical Research JILA: Joint Institute for Laboratory Astrophysics JPL: Jet Propulsion Laboratory JSC: Johnson Space Center (NASA) KAO: Kuiper Airborne Observatory KPNO: Kitt Peak National Observatory KSC: Kennedy Space Center (NASA) KTB: Cretaceous-Tertiary Boundary (from German) LANL: Los Alamos National Laboratory LaRC: Langley Research Center (NASA) LDEF: Long Duration Exposure Facility LEM: Lunar Excursion Module (a.k.a. LM) (Apollo spacecraft) LEO: Low Earth Orbit LeRC: Lewis Research Center (NASA) LEST: Large Earth-based Solar Telescope LFSA: List of Frequently Seen Acronyms (!) LGA: Low Gain Antenna LGM: Little Green Men LH: Liquid Hydrogen (also LH2 or LHX) LLNL: Lawrence-Livermore National Laboratory LM: Lunar Module (a.k.a. LEM) (Apollo spacecraft) LMC: Large Magellanic Cloud LN2: Liquid N2 (Nitrogen) LOX: Liquid OXygen LRB: Liquid Rocket Booster LSR: Local Standard of Rest LTP: Lunar Transient Phenomenon MB: Manned Base MCC: Mission Control Center MECO: Main Engine CutOff MMH: MonoMethyl Hydrazine MMT: Multiple Mirror Telescope MMU: Manned Maneuvering Unit MNRAS: Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society MOC: Mars Observer Camera (on Mars Observer) MOL: Manned Orbiting Laboratory MOLA: Mars Observer Laser Altimeter (on Mars Observer) MOMV: Manned Orbital Maneuvering Vehicle MOTV: Manned Orbital Transfer Vehicle MPC: Minor Planets Circular MRSR: Mars Rover and Sample Return MRSRM: Mars Rover and Sample Return Mission MSFC: (George C.) Marshall Space Flight Center (NASA) MTC: Man Tended Capability NACA: National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics (became NASA) NASA: National Aeronautics and Space Administration NASDA: NAtional Space Development Agency (Japan) NASM: National Air and Space Museum NASP: National AeroSpace Plane NBS: National Bureau of Standards (now NIST) NDV: NASP Derived Vehicle NERVA: Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application NGC: New General Catalog NICMOS: Near Infrared Camera / Multi Object Spectrometer (HST upgrade) NIMS: Near-Infrared Mapping Spectrometer (on Galileo) NIR: Near InfraRed NIST: National Institute for Standards and Technology (was NBS) NLDP: National Launch Development Program NOAA: National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration NOAO: National Optical Astronomy Observatories NRAO: National Radio Astronomy Observatory NRO: National Reconnaissance Office NS: Neutron Star NSA: National Security Agency NSF: National Science Foundation NSO: National Solar Observatory NSSDC: National Space Science Data Center NTR: Nuclear Thermal Rocket(ry) NTT: New Technology Telescope OAO: Orbiting Astronomical Observatory OCST: Office of Commercial Space Transportation OMB: Office of Management and Budget OMS: Orbital Maneuvering System OPF: Orbiter Processing Facility ORFEUS: Orbiting and Retrievable Far and Extreme Ultraviolet Spectrometer OSC: Orbital Sciences Corporation OSCAR: Orbiting Satellite Carrying Amateur Radio OSSA: Office of Space Science and Applications OSSE: Oriented Scintillation Spectrometer Experiment (on CGRO) OTA: Optical Telescope Assembly (on HST) OTHB: Over The Horizon Backscatter OTV: Orbital Transfer Vehicle OV: Orbital Vehicle PAM: Payload Assist Module PAM-D: Payload Assist Module, Delta-class PI: Principal Investigator PLSS: Portable Life Support System PM: Pressurized Module PMC: Permanently Manned Capability PMIRR: Pressure Modulated InfraRed Radiometer (on Mars Observer) PMT: PhotoMultiplier Tube PSF: Point Spread Function PSR: PulSaR PV: Photovoltaic PVO: Pioneer Venus Orbiter QSO: Quasi-Stellar Object RCI: Rodent Cage Interface (for SLS mission) RCS: Reaction Control System REM: Rat Enclosure Module (for SLS mission) RF: Radio Frequency RFI: Radio Frequency Interference RIACS: Research Institute for Advanced Computer Science RMS: Remote Manipulator System RNGC: Revised New General Catalog ROSAT: ROentgen SATellite ROUS: Rodents Of Unusual Size (I don't believe they exist) RSN: Real Soon Now RTG: Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator RTLS: Return To Launch Site (Shuttle abort plan) SAA: South Atlantic Anomaly SAGA: Solar Array Gain Augmentation (for HST) SAMPEX: Solar Anomalous and Magnetospheric Particle EXplorer SAO: Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory SAR: Search And Rescue SAR: Synthetic Aperture Radar SARA: Satellite pour Astronomie Radio Amateur SAREX: Search and Rescue Exercise SAREX: Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment SAS: Space Activity Suit SAS: Space Adaptation Syndrome SAT: Synthetic Aperture Telescope S/C: SpaceCraft SCA: Shuttle Carrier Aircraft SCT: Schmidt-Cassegrain Telescope SDI: Strategic Defense Initiative SDIO: Strategic Defense Initiative Organization SEI: Space Exploration Initiative SEST: Swedish ESO Submillimeter Telescope SETI: Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence SID: Sudden Ionospheric Disturbance SIR: Shuttle Imaging Radar SIRTF: Space (formerly Shuttle) InfraRed Telescope Facility SL: SpaceLab SLAR: Side-Looking Airborne Radar SLC: Space Launch Complex SLS: Space(lab) Life Sciences SMC: Small Magellanic Cloud SME: Solar Mesosphere Explorer SMEX: SMall EXplorers SMM: Solar Maximum Mission SN: SuperNova (e.g., SN1987A) SNR: Signal to Noise Ratio SNR: SuperNova Remnant SNU: Solar Neutrino Units SOFIA: Stratospheric Observatory For Infrared Astronomy SOHO: SOlar Heliospheric Observatory SPAN: Space Physics and Analysis Network SPDM: Special Purpose Dextrous Manipulator SPOT: Systeme Probatoire pour l'Observation de la Terre SPS: Solar Power Satellite SRB: Solid Rocket Booster SRM: Solid Rocket Motor SSF: Space Station Fred (er, Freedom) SSI: Solid-State Imager (on Galileo) SSI: Space Studies Institut SSME: Space Shuttle Main Engine SSPF: Space Station Processing Facility SSRMS: Space Station Remote Manipulator System SST: Spectroscopic Survey Telescope SST: SuperSonic Transport SSTO: Single Stage To Orbit STIS: Space Telescope Imaging Spectrometer (to replace FOC and GHRS) STS: Shuttle Transport System (or) Space Transportation System STScI: Space Telescope Science Institute SWAS: Submillimeter Wave Astronomy Satellite SWF: ShortWave Fading TAL: Transatlantic Abort Landing (Shuttle abort plan) TAU: Thousand Astronomical Unit (mission) TCS: Thermal Control System TDRS: Tracking and Data Relay Satellite TDRSS: Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System TES: Thermal Emission Spectrometer (on Mars Observer) TIROS: Television InfraRed Observation Satellite TLA: Three Letter Acronym TOMS: Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer TPS: Thermal Protection System TSS: Tethered Satellite System UARS: Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite UBM: Unpressurized Berthing Mechanism UDMH: Unsymmetrical DiMethyl Hydrazine UFO: Unidentified Flying Object UGC: Uppsala General Catalog UHF: Ultra High Frequency UIT: Ultraviolet Imaging Telescope (Astro package) UKST: United Kingdom Schmidt Telescope USAF: United States Air Force USMP: United States Microgravity Payload UT: Universal Time (a.k.a. GMT, UTC, or Zulu Time) UTC: Coordinated Universal Time (a.k.a. UT) UV: UltraViolet UVS: UltraViolet Spectrometer VAB: Vehicle Assembly Building (formerly Vertical Assembly Building) VAFB: Vandenberg Air Force Base VEEGA: Venus-Earth-Earth Gravity Assist (Galileo flight path) VHF: Very High Frequency VLA: Very Large Array VLBA: Very Long Baseline Array VLBI: Very Long Baseline Interferometry VLF: Very Low Frequency VLT: Very Large Telescope VMS: Vertical Motion Simulator VOIR: Venus Orbiting Imaging Radar (superseded by VRM) VPF: Vertical Processing Facility VRM: Venus Radar Mapper (now called Magellan) WD: White Dwarf WFPC: Wide Field / Planetary Camera (on HST) WFPCII: Replacement for WFPC WIYN: Wisconsin / Indiana / Yale / NOAO telescope WSMR: White Sands Missile Range WTR: Western Test Range WUPPE: Wisconsin Ultraviolet PhotoPolarimter Experiment (Astro package) XMM: X-ray Multi Mirror XUV: eXtreme UltraViolet YSO: Young Stellar Object #!/usr/bin/perl # 'alt', An Acronym Scrambling Program, by Larry Wall $THRESHOLD = 2; srand; while (<>) { next unless /^([A-Z]\S+): */; $key = $1; $acro{$key} = $'; @words = split(/\W+/,$'); unshift(@words,$key); $off = 0; foreach $word (@words) { next unless $word =~ /^[A-Z]/; *w = $&; vec($w{$word}, $off++ % 6, 1) = 1; } } foreach $letter (A .. Z) { *w = $letter; @w = keys %w; if (@w < $THRESHOLD) { @d = `egrep '^$letter' /usr/dict/words`; chop @d; push(@w, @d); } } foreach $key (sort keys %acro) { $off = 0; $acro = $acro{$key}; $acro =~ s/((([A-Z])[A-Z]*)[a-z]*)/ &pick($3, $2, $1, ++$off) || $& /eg; print "$key: $acro"; } sub pick { local($letter, $prefix, $oldword, $off) = @_; $i = 0; if (length($prefix) > 1 && index($key,$prefix) < 0) { if ($prefix eq $oldword) { $prefix = ''; } else { $prefix = $letter; } } if (length($prefix) > 1) { local(*w) = substr($prefix,0,1); do { $word = $w[rand @w]; } until $word ne $oldword && $word =~ /^$prefix/i || ++$i > 30; $word =~ s/^$prefix/$prefix/i; $word; } elsif (length($prefix) == 1) { local(*w) = $prefix; do { $word = $w[rand @w]; } until $word ne $oldword && vec($w{$word}, $off, 1) || ++$i > 10; $word = "\u\L$word" if $word =~ tr/a-z/A-Z/; $word; } else { local(*w) = substr($oldword,0,1); do { $word = $w[rand @w]; } until $word ne $oldword && $word =~ tr/a-z/A-Z/ == 0 || ++$i > 30; $word; } } -- Mark Bradford (bradfrd2@ncar.ucar.edu) <> To err is human, to moo bovine. "It's an ill wind that gathers no moss." ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jan 93 19:59:00 GMT From: Bruce Watson Subject: Orbital elements of junk in space wanted Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1i5ncmINNh0g@clinet.fi| jeppe@clinet.fi (Joachim Paganus) writes: |I'm looking for a '2-line orbital elements list' of junk, i.e. deceased |satellites, rocket-bodies and other debris that is still in orbit. |I have one very old list, but where could I get a list that is up to |date? (I don't know from where I got the list I have) | Two-line orbital elements for every unclassified object in orbit are available on the Reports and Information Dissemination Remote Bulletin Board System by modem. Phone (301) 306-0010. -- Bruce Watson (wats@scicom) Bulletin 629-49 Item 6700 Extract 75,131 ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 93 02:27:43 GMT From: Mark Stavar Subject: Soviet space disaster? Newsgroups: soc.history,sci.space,soc.culture.soviet Charles Packer (packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov) wrote: : Somebody told me recently that they had read that the : former Soviet Union had suffered a space disaster in which : they had to leave one of their cosmonauts in orbit to die : because they couldn't rescue him. My informant said that : his information came from reading newspaper accounts of : formerly secret material that was made public in the last : couple of years during the unravelling of the Soviet system : and the subsequent increase in openness of discussion and : publication in Russia. -- I recall reading that at some point earlyish in the Russian space programme that there was a retro mis-fire on one of their missions. This lead to the unfortunate situation of the space craft in question flying off directly into the sun. The story mentioned something about the wife of the cosmonaut in question being in radio contact with him up to the very end. I have no hard material evidence with which to back up this story - it may be plain wrong. marks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Stavar Mincom Pty Ltd Juliette St Brisbane Q Aust Email: marks@iris.mincom.oz.au Ph: +61 7 364 9999 #include ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 93 04:52:26 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Space List Flame Wars Newsgroups: sci.space In article pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu ("Phil G. Fraering") writes: > ... The people trying to push this off into > other newsgroups, which are accesible neither for posting > nor reading purposes to much of the internet population, are > IMHO either ignorant of the status quo or actively supporting > said status quo... While I'm reluctant to disagree with Phil after his most complimentary comments on my contribution :-), I'm afraid I have to here. If your site does not get talk.politics.space, there is a reason. Your site administrators presumably have decided that they do not wish to expend resources on political discussions. (If the lack of the group is just because they don't know their customers want it... have you told them about it?) Moving such discussions to sci.space is NOT a desirable response -- it might make them shut off this group too, on the grounds that it's too political. There's always going to be some spillover of politics into sci.space, because space is a very politics-driven field right now. But we can try to keep the knock-down-drag-out fights in talk.politics.space, where they really do belong. -- "God willing... we shall return." | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology -Gene Cernan, the Moon, Dec 1972 | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 93 05:03:33 GMT From: Graydon Subject: SSTO vs 2 stage Newsgroups: sci.space In article , ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) says: > >[me] >>Rather depends on how many heavy cargoes there are, doesn't it? > >No, I don't think so. Building and testing a new two-stage vehicle >would be more expensive than building and testing a new one-stage >vehicle. So costs would be greater no matter how many, or how few, >payloads you spread them out over. Huh? Rather depends on the vehicle, doesn't it? And the design team, and the funding situation, and... The Bruce's proposal seemed to assume an off the shelf DC-1, with all the mating hardware (or as much as possible) going on the lower stage. >>As I understand it, the point to an SSTO is to make expendables >>non-cost effective. So there *won't* be another vehicle fairly >>soon after DC-1's get flying in numbers if they work as advertised. > >I don't think Boeing gave up when McDonnell Douglas introduced >the DC-3. If one company demonstrates a successful space >transportation system that makes money, other companies >won't let them have the market all to themselves for long. This pre-supposes a significant market; what basis to believe that there will be one do you have? How many comsats are backlogged waiting for launch? >>If there's one or two heavy cargoes a year, Bruce's quick and simple >>second stage might make a great deal more sense than scaling up >>an SSTO design by a factor of five, which I would expect to be quite >>difficult, since it's a complete re-design and probably needs new >>engines. > >Bruce's "quick and simple" concept requires *two* new designs. >You couldn't just put 5x the cargo into an existing DC-1. Unless >it was unusually dense, it wouldn't fit into the cargo bay. Even >if you could, the vehicle's balance would be off. So you're talking >a major redesign, then component testing of both the first and second >stages, then testing both the first and second stages together.... > >And I can't understand why a larger SSTO would need new engines >while a TSTO with a comparable liftoff weight wouldn't. What is the assumed specific gravity of a DC cargo? The TSTO *does* need new engines; however, they might be more readily available (being kerosene burners) than the whatever a 50 tons to orbit SSTO needs. (It won't be just more of what DC-1 uses; square cube law and aerodynamics don't leave the bottom of the cone having enough room.) As for cargo stacking - hammer-headed payloads don't seem to bother the expendables; I suspect that you don't need to redo the entire vehicle. I also suspect that the payload bay is designed to have as much volume as it possibly can, to give more leeway for odd structures. The point is in any case moot in the abscence of a real engineering study done *after* DC-1 flies. Graydon ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 93 04:37:00 GMT From: wingo%cspara.decnet@Fedex.Msfc.Nasa.Gov Subject: Stupid Shut Cost arguements (was Re: Terminal Velocity Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Jan5.003325.26043@iti.org>, aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes... >In article <1993Jan4.201501.18537@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> rbw3q@rayleigh.mech.Virginia.EDU (Brad Whitehurst) writes: > [stuff deleted] >Shuttle isn't getting us anywhere. Wrose, is sucks up all the money we >get preventing progress. DC can work but it may not work. We need alternatives. > Allen I put a question to you. Do you think that if we grounded the Shuttle permanently tomorrow, laid off all personell involved in the Shuttle's overhead and began work on the DC series that the rest of the money would be available for other uses in space? If you think so, which seems to be your underlying premise in advocating your scenario, then I respectfully submit that you are mistaken. Especially now in the fiscal climate that exists today in the US government, the money would simply be diverted to the same old bread and circuses game that we have lived with for twenty years. My evidence? During the Non flight years of the US space program from 75 to 81 the budget was about 1/3 what it is today, even allowing for inflation. Only when the shuttle began ramping up did the workforce increase and the budgets begin to rise. Additionally, the program did not get any further increases until a large manned program, (Space Station) begin. There were plenty of opportunities during the seventies to increase other areas of the space budget, this did not happen. They even were further curtailed. The dearth of planetary explorers has its origin during the years when manned space was at an ebb. The budget for the other programs that are wonderfully worthy such as MO, Galielo and others only happened after the manned program became robust again. Again, I support the DC program, it should be funded. You are not considering political reality if you think that the sacrifice of the billions spent on shuttle would gain the DC program a dime however. The DC would have to grow in ways that would immediately put it back into the realm of the shuttle in its systematic costs. If we can keep the DC as a low ball effort then we might keep the spec changers away from it long enough to develop it as a viable complement, later a suppliment, lastly a replacement for the shuttle. This is a worthy goal for the program, but it will not happen if it becomes the focus of attention that you wish it to be. > >>Would everything go to >>Russia for launch, and depend on an uncertain foreign infrastructure, >>or convert part of Canaveral to launch Russian rockets? > >We don't use Russian rockets; we use Atlas or Titan. Both routinely rebuild >their launchers to conform to payload interface requirements and NASA's >evaluation of Soyuz as ACRV indicate that using Soyuz with US aerospace >standards isn't a problem. > The point of this statment Allen is that if we really want to do it for the lowest price available then we should just contract out our space program to our Russian friends. Then we, vicariously could sit back and smile as we watch the first Russian cosmonauts land on Mars in a few years courtesy of money supplied by us. This would be the logical end to your whole plan of cost reduction. >>Can you get enough power and life support from Soyuz/Mir for >>5-6 people + our experiments? > >Send them to an industrial space facility. We have build space stations >before and replacing Shuttle's limited ability in orbit shouldn't be >hard. We already have Spacehab and Spacelab and it shouldn't be hard >to add power and facilities to them. Keeping the lab in orbit will allow >greater utilization and cut costs even more. > You always toss of the problems of systems that you think are theoretically superior to the Shuttle. As an engineer that will be installing a payload in the spacehab module in 72 hours let me tell you that what you are saying is far from reality. All Spacehab is is a pressure vessel. To maintain its structural integrity for holdin air, it relys on its structural supports connected to the shuttle. This is just for beginners. It totally depends on power from the Shuttle. This goes also for thermal control, atmosphere and control of the experiments via either direct astronaut intervention or control from the middeck. All Spacehab is, is an extension of the middeck lockers. IT would cost several hundred million just to make it into a free flyer. Then you would have all of the problems relating to the fact that none of the experiments are designed to be removed on orbit. So Allen please try to look at things from a slightly wider perspective. Dennis, University of Alabama in Huntsville. ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 15 : Issue 635 ------------------------------